Jason Hartman hosts guest Romana King, award-winning real estate writer and director of content for Zolo. They talk about the real estate market north of the border, in Canada, more specifically Vancouver. Romana gives tips for real estate investors when it comes to buy and hold.
Investor 0:00This market specialist was able to tell me the absolute lowest rent they’ve ever rented in a particular neighborhood within a certain parameter. And that number was great. It was within $50 of what they were telling me even record the lowest number to get great return terrific results. And then the other thing about having people applying and keyed up and lined up to rent your properties right away just because that marketplace so huge and so many people, that just gives you a sense of confidence that you’re gonna have a very good cash flowing property without a great deal of risk is going to sit vacant for a month or two months and that sort of thing.
Announcer 0:33Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender developer. entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it. And now here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 1:23Welcome to Episode 1233 1233. And greetings again from Copenhagen, Denmark. We have a fantastic episode lined up for you today. So let’s listen in. It’s my pleasure to welcome Romana King to the show. She is an award winning real estate writer for Inman and realtor.com and she’s director of Zillow. Ramana How are you?
Romana King 1:47I’m great director of content. I’m not head of Zillow.
Jason Hartman 1:51Sorry about that. But I’m giving you a promotion. Hey,
Romana King 1:54I already
Jason Hartman 1:56Yeah, there you go. So you are coming to us from one of the biggest bucks Markets on the planet Vancouver one of my favorite cities.
Romana King 2:04Yes, we’re very bubbly over here. We’ve certainly been waiting for the correction for quite some time. And it’s certainly good to see from a real estate investment perspective that it’s starting to make more sense in Vancouver.
Jason Hartman 2:17Yeah. So how much correction Have you had off the peak? I mean, was your peak about two years ago? Maybe?
Romana King 2:23Yes, our peak was about two years ago, we experienced a bit of a run up towards the end of 2017 because of some regulation that was coming in in January 1 2018. And then it’s fallen precipitously off the cliff like we just took a dive and noticed certain areas about a price reduction about 40%. Sales activities. Yes, sales activities down in the double digits. That said we have to understand how vastly overpriced it was and how there were certain entities within the market. I mean, if people follow stock markets, the understand what a market maker is a market makers that you know, massive sovereign wealth fund or the massive pension fund that comes in doesn’t really mind if they’re going to pay an inflated price for something because they’re going to hold it long term. Well, we had market makers in Vancouver, which were money launderers and foreign buyer money. They really didn’t care the price and they really drove up pricing. So to have it correct is good.
Jason Hartman 3:16Yeah, it is. It’s healthy to have a correction and have legitimate price discovery, obviously. So a 40% correction already. Do you think you’re done with the correction, or is there still more downside to come?
Romana King 3:31I think we’re done. I think the downside is only going to come up we see interest rates hike up quite a bit in a short period of time. I think we can absorb incremental soft interest rate hikes. And we already know that 2019 is looking very soft. We don’t think there’s going to be any more hikes this year in Canada, let alone the US. The US drives our market a little bit. We’re very aligned with it. So I don’t think there’s going to be much more of a correction if at all, and the 40% is only in certain very inflated markets which were the luxury markets. The higher end real estate investment properties, the other areas have not had so much of a correction maybe between 2010 and 20%. And in some areas, it’s actually still quite hot, lower price bands are quite hot. And of course, the lower price bands are the small or real estate investors of the condos. The assignment you purchase condos summoned, they’re still quite hot in the area. So we’re not it’s not even across the board.
Jason Hartman 4:27So I profile the property. And by the way, listeners, we’re not just going to talk about Canada, just since and she happens to be located in one of the biggest bubble markets on the planet. That’s why it makes sense to kind of talk about it a 40% decline. This is, you know, Vancouver, highly cyclical market. This is why I like these good conservative, solid linear markets that are really quite boring. They don’t get much attention from the media, because, hey, there’s not much to talk about. They just sort of chug along and do their thing. But you say you Luxury Homes, I just have to comment. You say, Well, in the luxury home price band, well, I profiled a property in Vancouver, maybe two years ago, a year and a half ago on the show here. It was two and a half million dollars. And it was a complete shack. I mean, it was a total shock. And then interestingly, I just saw a property that looked quite similar to it in San Francisco. And I thought deja vu all over again.
Romana King 5:27Well, it’s a great reminder that, you know, I am intimately aware of the whole cycle of of land and housing and a lot of people don’t understand. And I think investors have a much better comprehension is but a lot of people don’t understand that. When they purchase a property. The value isn’t in the property, it’s in the land. Thank you,
Jason Hartman 5:46you realize that, you know, it took me 19 years to discover that And out of that discovery, I invented something I call the Hartman risk evaluator. Oh and I coined a phrase called I mean, we’ve all heard of the LTV ratio of a loan to value ratio. Well, I created one called the LTI ratio, the land to improvement ratio. Yeah. So so the value of the improvement the house sitting on the land and then the land, you know, people don’t realize that Ramana when you buy a property, you’re buying two distinct components. Yes. And I’m so glad you said that listeners. She’s brilliant. Okay, go ahead. Tell us more about that.
Romana King 6:27Well, I often talk to people, particularly investors and say, you know, when you’re purchasing you need to understand which one is bringing value. If you’re purchasing property, and if you’re a smaller investor, you maybe have a couple of doors, and you’re looking at say have a lot of people bought purchase houses here and they divide them up into multiple units. You want to make sure that that house you don’t have to dump a lot of money into it to create that multiple unit in the cash flow there. And if you’re purchasing something to say rip down and build up again, what’s the maximum value you can put on that land to get the most money back for your your dollars? So really, you have to look at the land. And then you have to look at the property independently and understand what value you can bring to it and what cash flow you need in order to maximize that value. Right. A lot of the times when we look at these shacks, I mean, they’re often profile whether in San Francisco or Vancouver, a multi million dollar shacks. Yeah, if they can do you would often see phenomenal houses or mixed use development right beside the shack and what it is it’s the last on the block. It hasn’t been gentrified. It hasn’t been redeveloped. It really is a steal if you’ve got the cash flow in order to make it happen.
Jason Hartman 7:33Yeah, yeah. But you’ve got to have a lot of staying power to see that the investment through a cycle and that’s where most people fail. You know, this is not for small players, you got to have significant reserves and budget that into the deal. You know, you have the budget for that so, absolutely. Okay, so one more thing I want to ask you about Canada, then I want to move on to the those some broader subjects but tell us about the year financing the Do you have 30 year fixed rate mortgages? And what are the approximate interest rates? See, I was talking about how the US I mean, I’ve been to 83 countries and I’ve looked at real estate investing all around the world. I’ve been out with brokers in Eastern Europe, Western Europe, South America, Central America, just like everywhere. The US is a really unique market because we we have this system where properties are subsidized by the government through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And if you’re a US citizen, and you’re complaining about welfare and Robin Hood, take from the rich give the poor Well listen, get some subsidies of your own, just go out and buy some properties and get some loans because those are your subsidies
Romana King 8:44really is unique. I mean, we do not have that in Canada, we do have help for someone who wants to buy a house. So instead of putting down we all know that conventional mortgage, you save up 20% you put that down, you bought a home in Canada, if you can’t save up to 20% the government help will help. So that’s The only sort of subsidy will provide. It’s not like America, we don’t have quotas that have to be met in order for people to buy homes. And I found that quite interesting and unique when I was looking at the 2008 2009 credit crunch and what happened in America with housing, and how the bottom sort of fell out, because we didn’t understand those loans, you know, was all pushing and running towards these quotas that Freddie and Fannie Mac had, in order to try and get people into homes as homeowners. We don’t have that in Canada. If it drops, we might tweak our regulations. But really, it’s up to the buyer. If you haven’t saved you’re not getting in. We do have a different mortgage system as well. In America, I believe that you’ll go in and you have points added. So the rate that you see is the lowest possible rate. And then if you don’t make that rate, you’re going to have points out and then all of a sudden the rate starts going up and in candidates slightly different, we have the lowest rate possible. And then if you go in, you can actually sometimes get lower than posted or lower than the discount because you’ve got great credit or you’ll get higher. So it really is our mortgages. Take maybe you Three to five days to finalize. I’ve heard waiting three months in America so far. Yeah, vastly different. I mean, they’re different beasts, the one thing I really like about how the American mortgage system is structured, and I might get beaten with a bad stick here in Canada for saying this, but I like the fact that you’ve made it a tax advantage. So those 30 year mortgages, they look really attractive when you can get great rates, because I’m going to be able to deduct the interest on that mortgage for the next 30 years. So as an investor, fabulous, I’m going to really be able to leverage Yes, I can do that in Canada, you can if it’s an investment property, but there are some disadvantages. There are ways for us to make a tax advantage to us. But we really have to learn the system and really be you know, tech savvy and mortgage savvy and just debt savvy, because a lot harder. So in Canada and in America is quite different.
Jason Hartman 10:49How long are your loans? Do they reset? I mean, my first long distance relationship ever I had a girlfriend who lived in Vancouver. And you know, this was a long time ago though, when she told me that the You know, her dad was a developer. And so she knew about real estate. The loans only lasted five years, and then they had to be renegotiated every five years
Romana King 11:09to five years is the typical term. Most people like it because it’s it’s the best price point, it’s the most amount of security with the least amount of premium. You can get one year in its six months. Really, it’s five years, seven years. 10 years is quite unusual unless you’re an investor.
Jason Hartman 11:24Okay? So five to seven years would it stay fixed for that long
Romana King 11:27if you get a fixed rate mortgage, so we have different types of we have a fixed rate, I can lock in for those five to seven years, or can get variable I’m going to watch the rates rise if they rise or fall, and I will supposedly get rewarded or penalized based on that. So in the next five years, if I have a variable rate and rates go up, either a percentage of my my mortgage payment is going to go more to the interest payment or my my actual monthly payment is going to rise. It depends on what I’ve negotiated. But really you can do it’s locked in for that five to seven years. If I choose fixed. If I try and break that mortgage, I’m going to pay a hefty penalty, I’m going to 10s of thousands in order to get out. If I have variable rate for that five years, I’m only going to pay three months interest. That’s it, which is not that much.
Jason Hartman 12:12But that’s still you don’t have to do that in the US at all. You know, there are prepayment penalties occasionally, but they’re pretty rare nowadays. So us investors, you got a really unique real estate market, it’s unique and all the world it’s, it’s, it’s really cool that it’s that way. Why don’t I ask you one more thing about Canada, you talked about the market makers creating a bubble. And we have a similar thing here with these hedge funds and private equity groups that have come into real estate markets and distorted values and and then we have these I think stupid opportunities own things that are distorting values and people are going to lose a lot of money. Okay, I’m just that’s my prediction. I some people will make money certainly most of them will be the fund managers for these things and not the investors. Okay, so You heard me say it, folks. That’s just my opinion. I could be wrong. But you seem to agree with me. Any thoughts on that?
Romana King 13:05Yeah, I have a tough time when it comes to what reads mix, you know, written mortgage investment corporations reach the real estate funds that you know, purchase a bunch of properties and buy shares, and that I think the really well capitalized the ones that actually follow regulatory paperwork, the ones that have the paper trail, they have a track record, I think they’re great, because I’m not buying real property. I’m buying shares of people making decisions buying real property. So I have to really understand that I’m not the one that’s making decisions. I’m a bricks and mortar person, but I do invest in the stock market. So like, I don’t agree with that. But I do like bricks and mortar when it comes to real estate investments because I get a chance to really do the fundamentals, the decisions based on those fundamentals. When it comes to buying shares in the stuff I want to be really sure that I can it’s very transparent and I understand that most people are making those decisions
Jason Hartman 13:56and it’s never really transparent. You know, I agree with you. I like being a direct investor. That’s what we teach all our clients to do you know, when you’re not a direct investor, you leave yourself susceptible to three major problems. Number one, you might be investing with a crook. Number two, you might be investing with an idiot. And assuming they’re honest and competent. The third problem is they take a huge management fee off the top for managing the deal. And there’s a lot of these management fees, you don’t even know their what their management fee is, because they’re putting all kinds of expenses into the fund or the pool. You know, they’re flying around on their private jet and, you know, having dinners wining and dining other investors with your money, I mean, it’s just just be a direct investor. You know, that’s for my money. That’s what you should do. But, but what was the regulation that came in that? Did they stop those funds and private equity groups or whatever from investing in that market and driving up prices? What happened?
Romana King 14:52It’s some of the federal budget changes we actually didn’t allow, there was a tax advantage to being a mortgage Investment Corporation. You can flow through and you can you You can actually pull money and actually tap some tax advantage. It was considered sort of a trust. And what the federal government came into the state they nixed that they made it impossible for people to do it, you’d have to pay much higher taxes for that. So it became almost impossible to really make money in mortgage investment corporations. If that reason the money dried up, they’re not on reads. But in mix, okay. I mean, I, I used to have an investor that I spoke to all the time, he made gobs of cash doing this, and very angry when the regulations change. And understandably, because he did, he was an investor. He did it all by investors. But you know, taxes, systems change tax regulations changed. Government realized they could make money, the tax guys hires, right, right. So they took the incentive away the subsidy and then the market wasn’t so distorted. So you had your big price adjustment, and here we are today. Talk to us about whatever you like, whatever you want to talk about. I mean, there’s quite a bit going on. Tell us just for a moment about zolo is that some kind of new model All in the real estate world. Well, it’s new in the real estate world. I mean, it’s even fresher than say Zillow, and that was only around 2005 I believe Zillow and Zillow. Not to be confused Not to be confused, Zillow, Trulia. So they’re they’re relatively new in this very old business. We came about in about 2012, there was a bunch of tech people that thought you know what real estate needs a shake up. And we weren’t the only company in Canada to do that. We are the Canada’s largest national brokerage, we have about 6 million people that start their home search or start the property search on our site each month, and for a country with only about 35 million people or something that’s
Jason Hartman 16:37a lot of market area,
Romana King 16:38we have much smaller population. So that’s a much bigger market share. The great thing is is that by looking at the real estate industry, from a sort of a tech perspective, we thought this is an industry ripe for change. We know that people want more information we want transparency. So we’ve been slowly behind the scenes working at providing more information so that’s about what our brokerage because we have to play within the red of the rules in Canada, you can’t have MLS feed unless you’re a brokerage, where brokerage so that we can get that feed, we take that feed and then we pump it out there to try and give as much information to investors, buyers sellers as much as they can get so they can make informed what kind of information like comparable sales past pricing history or what kind of stuff a lot of the stuff that I think Americans are really well accustomed to. So seems to you didn’t it’s new to you, right? Yeah, it’s new to what we weren’t allowed to do this. And now we are allowed to do this. We were doing this a little bit behind the scenes and sort of gating it but you’re getting the information from us. Now we can do it above board where everyone can sort of get it. But I mean, Zillow has this and I keep mentioning Zillow, just because that seems to be the monster in the room or everyone knows it. They provide the history. They provide the taxes. They provide, you know the sale history, they provide that what they think the house should go for whether it’s going to, you know what’s going to rent for we weren’t allowed to have this. We’re now providing all of this information above board to all the investors and sellers and buyers out in Canada.
Jason Hartman 18:00That’s great. That’s awesome, though. Well, you know, welcome to 2005, Canada. We love you guys, but we’re always teasing you, you know? What can I say? Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. But hey, you didn’t have a financial crisis like we did. Your banks were pretty sound through that. Yes. We’re the reckless folks down here. Tell us about investors shopping for investment properties. And, you know, just any tips on what investors should look for. I mean, of course, that’s what our shows about we have our own, but would love to hear an outsider’s view of that.
Romana King 18:33I think buying real estate is a lot like buying a home. So if you’ve ever bought a home, it’s much the same principle but remove the emotion and add a lot more metrics, right? A lot more data. If I’m buying a place, whether it’s an investment or home, I’m going to want a place that doesn’t have a lot of crime. Well, I’m gonna look at the crime stats. If you haven’t looked at the crime stats, and you’re buying a place of any sort for any reason. You’re really missing out why you’re never going to attract investors. You’re never going to attract renters your cash flow. You’ve got place in a poor an area where they have terrible crime rate. I do want to put one caveat on that, though. And the caveat is, don’t compare it. I mean, if you know if you’re upper middle class investor, like most of our clients, don’t compare it to where you live, because it will never compare very well. Because these little bread and butter rental properties are a lot cheaper than where you live. So
Romana King 19:24you really need to understand what kind of crime so
Jason Hartman 19:27don’t don’t expect zero crime in the best schools. Okay, you’re just not going to get him in any property. That makes sense.
Romana King 19:34Yeah, like you need is it is an area that that allows you to be safe. So if you got property damage, and then who cares, but you’ve got, you know, assaults, violent assaults, those are things you care about, and those are things you’re going to avoid. And you know, it’s pocket by pocket. You can have a pocket that’s awesome for that. And a pocket that’s not so great. Well look at the awesome pocket. I know lots of investors that did really well in Florida, where they knew that there were certain pockets to avoid, but there were great pockets in between and they need was easy to attract the investors or the renters because they knew that they were a great pocket even though they were surrounded by not so great. Right, right. It’s really about, again, adding the layers of metrics. You’re looking at crime. I look, all real estate is local. In fact, it’s hyper local, hyper local. You can walk across the street, you can walk across a lot of the market. Yes. So another thing that I do is I say, you know, know the area if you can’t walk it Google method. Gosh, I love Google Maps here. It’s amazing. You can see everything now you can really get an idea. Starbucks factor, we call it Starbucks factor, but it doesn’t have to be Starbucks. People look for pet stores. Because when you have pet stores, you have disposable income, disposable income, you’re someone that wants a better value, a better type of property for parks, look for dog parks, again, pets are good idea, good idea of what kind of neighbors what kind of people are going to be in that area. Schools. We all know that schools. Do you have an organic grocery store? Do you have a farmers market? These are things that we really say hey, look for those things. They’re
Jason Hartman 20:59good. As you say, all this stuff, you’re moving up on the price scale, I mean, I all those things are great. And those are the places I like to live. But, you know, I always say invest in places that make sense. So you can afford to live in places that don’t make sense. I mean, where I live would not make sense as an investment. I like living here, though.
Romana King 21:16up and coming neighborhoods will do this organically. So you’ll find areas where there the community bands together does a farmers market on the Sunday, fair on the Sunday and it becomes a regular thing. And often those in the neighborhoods that quickly appreciate all of a sudden, the they’re super popular, right? And it’s like, Where did this come from? Well, you know, a
Jason Hartman 21:35lot of those are these kind of gentrifying hipster areas.
Romana King 21:38But you know, I tell
Jason Hartman 21:40you, gentrification is an interesting thing. We’ve done shows on it over the years, and it takes time. It’s a very slow process.
Romana King 21:49That’s great for investors. Because if you’re a buy and hold investor that has good cash flow, positive cash flow month, a month and you’ve done your metrics you get in you allow the community to develop around you and abundance time you go to sell, you know, 10 years from now, you’re in a great position because you saw the trend before it was even taking off. And so a lot of the people that we talked to there, I mean, I have a bias. I think real estate is more of a buy and hold unless you’re
Jason Hartman 22:12speculating. And you couldn’t agree more. I’m not a speculator. Yeah.
Romana King 22:15And if you’re flipping, it’s an entirely different metric. But we look a lot of that. So that’s why we talk about you know, antique stores. I know that sounds funny, but a lot of the mom and pop antique stores that move into a neighborhood they move in because the rent is cheap, but the demographics support it. So you’ve got disposable income in the area, and they want that. So coffee shops, not Starbucks necessarily, but just coffee shops, libraries or community centers, are they well populated, they will use they had gone through some sort of, I don’t know development has the city put money into that that area, that community center, because if they have, it’s going to become an area where people start to congregate, and if they start to congregate, you start to build community, you start to build community that starts to be desirable. So we talked a lot about looking for community and looking for set signs that communities Developing. So love the at least you know what we looked at in Canada and even down in the States, we look at, you know, we have Canadian investors that invest in American property, but they’ve never set foot there. So we have a lot of investors that have never gone to Phoenix, Arizona, and have been next Arizona and what do you look for enclaves? Where do the Canadians like to rent Airbnb places, that’s where I’m going to buy because I know that there’s a captured market there where people are looking. So look on Airbnb, what’s really popular. So these are all different. And if you develop a strategy, and I’m big on spreadsheets, if you develop a strategy and a spreadsheet where you can actually monitor this, or you’re smart, and you let someone else do the work, and he just paid him to do the work, you know, you go to a site like yourself, or we have others in Canada, where they actually do these metrics for you. And you just you look at what’s important to you, you’re able to find the spots and the areas and the properties that actually makes sense for your your price point.
Jason Hartman 23:51Since you mentioned the Airbnb, I gotta ask you about the short term rental market. I don’t know if you know much about that market research at play in it at all. And again, this is not A database the statement I’m making, it’s just an impression. So it’s very anecdotal what I’m about to say, but I worry that that market is over supplied. It feels like a mania. It seems like everybody’s gotten into, you know, having a high end home and putting it on Airbnb or VR, Bo. And when the economy shifts and vacations are an optional extra expense, I really am concerned about that. I would say if you’re going to be in the Airbnb market, and going to play in that game, number one, make that only part of your portfolio. Certainly not all of it. And yeah, and number two, skewed toward the lower price range of it. What are your thoughts?
Romana King 24:39I’m 100%, behind what you just said. I think it is quite scary. And we saw a lot of people not just with Airbnb, but trying to create these luxury apartments, trying to get people to pay premium dollars. I think that’s a dangerous game. It’s very speculative, because people only have disposable income when the economy is really good or when they feel really safe and secure. And as soon as they don’t boom, what are they going to look like? A good value property and I’m again, it’s a buy and hold long term, but positive cash flow from month to month sort of philosophy, any of the properties we’ve ever held or the investors we’ve spoken to, we’re not knocking the parking. We’ve got, you know, market rent or just below to get those really quality long term tenants. Yeah, because I don’t have sure I don’t have cost. I don’t know. I’m making money, right? That’s for me as an investor.
Jason Hartman 25:25Yeah, absolutely. The bread and butter housing, it’s not sexy, but it’s always in demand. Either catch people moving up just starting out their life, a millennial that, you know, finally moved out of the house at age 32. And they will be your first renter, so anybody moving up in the economy, and you’ll certainly catch people moving down in the economy during a bad cycle, people that were foreclosed on and you know, want to rent a house for 1200 dollars a month or 1400 dollars a month. So either way, you’re going to win with that. give out your website, and Wrap it up with any closing thoughts you have
Romana King 26:01zillow.ca, which is the Zoella website or Ramana. King calm. That’s my personal website. Little unloved. But I’m putting more effort into that, because I’m so busy with so many other things. I guess what I’d like to wrap up on is when it comes to investing is to really understand that although it’s hyper local, we have a lot of really awesome tools that don’t force us to stay in our own domestic market, we really need to take a broad perspective and understand what the good value is, I would say probably stay within North America unless you’re familiar with another country outside of that. But you can really shop North America as an investor and have some really good tools to use. And you don’t necessarily need to do the house down the street. There’s some incredible tools that you can use, which is great because I think North American real estate, it’s still it has high value, even though there’s a lot of players and a lot of shifting components to it. Yeah, well, capital is flowing here mid to US and Canada for sure. I’m glad you said that because in the old days, people were so well I want to buy my rental properties within our within an hour. where I live, right? That was kind of the old rule in the old days. But now you have technologies that enable things, you have networks like ours, that helps you do that. You know, even if you live in the best market in which to invest, you’re only going to be in one market and you should diversify a little bit. We always say be in at least three markets, but not more than five. Because you can kind of keep track of that in your head. So if you’re going to own 10 rental properties, three to five markets, if you’re going to own 100 rental properties, three to five markets, right. And I think that’s very good advice Romana. So thank you so much for joining us. Websites again, zillow.ca and Ramana. King calm, happy investing. Thank you so much, Jason, take care.
Jason Hartman 27:45Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website heart and Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice, or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.